Processing Piper

Submitted by David on Sun, 2006-11-19 20:39

I'm still working my way through a series by John Piper. There's been a lot of interesting stuff that's been discussed lately, particularly in the discussions on prayer and worship. I'd like to elaborate on a few of those ideas here.

One of Piper's sessions on prayer seemed really more about the idea of fasting. Piper argues that fasting should be part of the normal pace of Christian life. This argument is based somewhat upon Matthew 9:15:

And Jesus said to them, "Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast. (ESV)

Do you agree with his conclusions about fasting? (He was quick to warm that fasting could be both an act of worship or a legalistic act). I've never fasted for any non-trivial amount of time - at least not a fast with any intentional theological significance. Should I take up such a practice?

Secondly, I was rather surprised a week or two ago to hear that a rapper sang in a service at Bethlehem Baptist Church (John Piper's home church) a while ago. Somehow based on what I had heard him speak before, I would have predicted a somewhat more traditional style of worship. (At the same time, he does seem to get along with Mark Driscoll in spite of some disagreement largely over Driscoll's style of speech - see Mark Driscoll's conversation with Piper on this over at his blog).

Piper quoted from John Calvin in the Institutes on the style of worship (I've linked to this quote in the context of a page discussing head covering in worship which some other readers might find interesting):

But because he [God—RPNA] did not will in outward discipline and ceremonies what we ought to do (because he foresaw that this depended upon the state of the times, and he did not deem one form suitable for all ages), here we must take refuge in those general rules which he has given, that whatever the necessity if the church will require for order and decorum should be tested against these ... Lastly, because he [God—RPNA] has taught nothing specifically, and because these things are not necessary to salvation, and for the upbuilding of the church ought to be variously accommodated to the customs of each nation and age, it will be fitting (as the advantage of the church will require) to change and abrogate traditional practices and to establish new ones

A third topic which John Piper spoke about was humour in worship. This is a topic that we've discussed before. John Piper stated that he hadn't told a joke in 20 years of ministry during a sermon, but at the same time that there had been laughter in his church when certain humourous things and he seemed comfortable with this. Church != stand-up comedy, but at the same time I think that it should not be totally devoid of laughter. I guess that I tend to prefer laughter in worship as something acceptable, but preferentially unintentional.

Comments

Scott

Mon, 2006-11-20 14:52

Regardless of whether or not we should fast for spiritual reasons, I have a tough time seeing the purpose of it. What does it accomplish? According to Wikipedia, Charismatic Christians do it to seek a closer intimacy with God. Not eating doesn't make me feel closer to God, it makes me feel hungry. Eastern Orthodox Christians donate the money they save on food to a charity (or to the poor directly), and believe that fasting without donating is considered useless/harmful. I would argue that we are so blessed that we can donate the same amount or more without fasting.

Probably the reason that we as Reformed Christians don't fast is because the reformers "criticized fasting as a purely external observance that can never gain a person salvation." The quote from Jesus about fasting not being necessary when He is with the disciples is interesting. The disciples did fast when Jesus died, but after he rose they were eating again. Could it be said that following Pentecost, with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, fasting is not necessary anymore? According to the deuterocanonical book Didache, Christians in the early church fasted regularly. I can't reach or agree with any sort of conclusion right now.

a rapper sang

That's an oxymoron, but whatever. I have no problem with a rapper busting some Christian rhymes, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's appropriate in church. There are a lot of mediums of expressing thankfulness to God that we don't exercise in church.

I didn't have time to read the whole report regarding head covering, but in the end it looks like they are in agreement with John Calvin that it was specific to the culture of that time in that place. Is Piper trying to use that as an excuse for why we should allow western culture to permeate into the church?

Church != stand-up comedy, but at the same time I think that it should not be totally devoid of laughter. I guess that I tend to prefer laughter in worship as something acceptable, but preferentially unintentional.

I've seen some unintentionally humorous stuff in church and found it amusing, but I think actual laughter would draw too much attention to it and detract from the sermon. I don't like distractions; I have a hard enough time concentrating as it is.

David

Mon, 2006-11-20 18:05

Is Piper trying to use that as an excuse for why we should allow western culture to permeate into the church?

The organ can be considered part of Western culture (albeit perhaps a slightly older Western culture). Culture elements are also present in terms of how people dress for worship, maner of speech, language of worship, congregational participation in worship (eg. is an 'amen' from the congregation considered acceptable or positive in worship?)

I've seen some unintentionally humorous stuff in church and found it amusing, but I think actual laughter would draw too much attention to it and detract from the sermon. I don't like distractions; I have a hard enough time concentrating as it is.

Could the struggle to try not to laugh possibly be more of a distraction than simply laughing for a moment?

Scott

Tue, 2006-11-21 14:05

Could the struggle to try not to laugh possibly be more of a distraction than simply laughing for a moment?

I'm not struggling with it so it's no distraction for me. If it were, however, I would say that distracting only yourself is preferable to distracting multiple people around you.

r0sigma

Tue, 2006-11-21 22:13

I have no problem with laughter in church per se, and in our church (Langley CanRC) we've probably had laughter a half-dozen times in the past year. We even laugh when we read the Bible at home, if something is funny. I just did a quick Google search and found this neat piece about humour in the Bible. If something funny happens and people unnaturally stifle their laughter, it seem to me that there is a general feeling of self-conscious awkwardness or self-congratulatory piety instead.

r0sigma - http://r0sigma.blogspot.com/

Sarennah

Tue, 2006-11-21 09:21

I always feel guilty if people laugh in church. It makes me uncomfortable. I don't know why this is-- to be honest I can't really think of a good reason why humour is bad. Humour is supposed to be good for you and can sometimes let you see a situation in a new light. I guess it's partly the culture we were raised in. But perhaps talking about God isn't humorous but it is a serious matter--so we need to behave appropriately? Just some thoughts.