On the charismatic movement

Submitted by David on Tue, 2006-08-15 19:12

A while back I was asked the question "aren't reformed and charismatic contradictory?" Here's roughly how I would define the words reformed and charismatic when used to describe a church:

reformed: likes flowers, particularly T.U.L.I.P.s

charismatic: does not believe that the spiritual gifts described in 1 Corinthians 12 were applicable only to the times of the apostles.

When defined in this way, reformed and charismatic can fit together. A recent post by Tim Challies describes his experience at a conference run by the Sovereign Grace family of churches - a denomination I've often heard described as "reformed charismatic". I've been in several churches that might be described as somewhat charismatic and I've not yet found one that fits the stereotype of such churches that exist in certain circles.

Comments

Q (not verified)

Tue, 2006-08-15 21:15

http://www.crossway.ca/

Link to a church in Surrey which is affiliated with Sovereign Grace Ministries (John Piper, Josh Harris are notable pastors associated with this denomination).

I think they have what I call a good balance. Perhaps, I differ with them on the issue of infant baptism (they do not practise infant baptism). Nevertheless, if you haven't checked them out, next time you are in the Valley check them out.

I think your definitions are fine in that they are self-defined. I think that the reformed denominations have lost sight of what the word reformed means. I believe that the spirit of the Reformation has been lost by the churchses that so ardently identify with Luther, Calvin, et. al. Perhaps, I'll blog an extensive entry on this bit as I have a keen interest in the history of the Reformation.

David

Tue, 2006-08-15 21:40

Link to a church in Surrey which is affiliated with Sovereign Grace Ministries (John Piper, Josh Harris are notable pastors associated with this denomination).

Josh Harris is affiliated, but I don't think that John Piper is. (John Piper is affiliated with the Baptist General Conference. It's amazing just how many different baptist organizations are out there). I've read some stuff by C.J. Mahaney who is also part of Sovereign Grace (and probably have at least a hundred megs of stuff on my MP3 player from Sovereign Grace at the moment).

I actually stumbled across the website of the Sovereign Grace church in Surrey sometime after having moved to Calgary, so I never did end up visiting the church. It's actually surprising how many denominations seem to emerge in the Fraser Valley from the US. My parents are members of another such church, and I've stumbled across at least another denomination or two whom sole Canadian representative is in the Fraser Valley area.

BTW, Quentin, since your return from Korea what church/denomination do you plan to attend now that you're back in BC?

As to the remainder of your comments, I had been debating adding in another entry into my list of definitions - "confessionally reformed", as opposed to merely "reformed."

confessionally reformed: places a strong emphasis on some 16/7 century reformed confession whether it's the Heidelberg Catechism, Belgic Confession, Canons of Dordt, Westminster Confession, or one of the London (Baptist) Confessions.

Should I add the above definition to my glossary?

Sarennah

Thu, 2006-08-17 12:37

Q & D, Beware the onslaught of questions...

Q, how do you think the CanRef church has lost sight of the meaning of Reformed?
Which reformer do you think the CanRef church identifies with the most, or is it a combination?

D, any idea how much the Crossway church uses (or do they at all?) the confessions in their worship?
When you say charismatic means that the gifts still exist, what are your thoughts on this? I heard from someone that they don't exist anymore because there is no need for them to exist anymore. I don't know if that holds a solid foundation though... This person told me that the gifts were used to prove that Gentile believers could receive gifts and be a part of the church too (I forget which text this was in), amongst other reasons. Do you think gifts & miracles are sort of related? Do miracles still happen? Is there a need for miracles to happen?
What about the gifts? If Crossway still believes they exist, which gifts are they all talking about? Do they have people with the gift of prophesy or speaking in tongues, or do they refer to the gifts of leadership or languages or music or similar talents?

David

Thu, 2006-08-17 12:52

I don't think that the Sovereign Grace churches use the confessions much in their worship. (In some of the stuff of theirs that I've been through I've seen a reference or two to the Westminster Confession, but that's been about it). I think that they view these documents as part of the history of the church - nothing more and nothing less. they may see some things of benefit to be gleaned from them, but at the same time they might see the same to be gleaned from any number of other sources.

I heard from someone that they don't exist anymore because there is no need for them to exist anymore.

They may not need to exist, but that's not exactly an airtight case to prove that they do not exist. I'm skeptical of much of what takes place in charismatic circles, yet at the same time I am not fully a cessationist. Do miracles still happen? I would have to say yes.

What about the gifts? If Crossway still believes they exist, which gifts are they all talking about? Do they have people with the gift of prophesy or speaking in tongues, or do they refer to the gifts of leadership or languages or music or similar talents?

This is described by Tim Challies's post that I linked to initially (do people ever read such things?). They do believe in the gift of prophesy and also of speaking in tongues (although the latter apparently happens very infrequently, and has not been something that I have seen in any church that I've visited that might be described as charismatic).

Sarennah

Thu, 2006-08-17 13:57

Sorry about that- I have to admit I read your post but not the link to the blog.

So I went and read it. Very insightful.

I'm still not sure where I stand. I don't really see why the gifts wouldn't still exist today, but from how they are practiced it seems ...... unlikely ... that those are the true gifts.

Tousle-Haired Poet (not verified)

Wed, 2006-08-30 13:37

The gifts exist for the purpose of glorifying God and edifying, encouraging, exhorting (etc) the church, Christ's Body. This is happening in 1000's of churches today in an orderly, beneficial and intelligent manner. The crazies who like to abuse the gifts like to stir up hype and get all the attention, and are likely the minority. Most I know who practise their gifts don't flaunt them, and are relatively quiet and humble about them.

P.S. thousands of miracles are happening everyday around the world, to the glory of God.

Sarennah

Thu, 2006-08-31 18:25

I think as civilization has depended more and more on science, we've become more and more cynical about miracles as Christians too. At least I think I have. Instead of saying "Oh so and so just got healed - it's a miracle!" we say "Such and such a doctor found this new medication", or instead of saying "He survived the accident, it's a miracle!" people are more likely to say "the new car frame saved him-- good thing technology has improved"

The examples are a bit pathetic but you probably get the general idea.

Tousle-Haired Poet (not verified)

Thu, 2006-08-31 11:22

I think your definition is pretty good. Here is what comes up on the web:

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+charismatic&meta=

I suppose the word has it's roots in describing the more extreme charismatic movements, in which a 'skilled' leader is able to "charismatically" mislead and draw the crowd into some sort of hype. Therefore, perhaps a different term is needed for your more general def'n to get away from the negative connotation. Non-cessationist could work,
although it's a bit complicated with a sort of double-negative. I think "charismatic" is typically more general than "Neo-Pentecostal", a term sometimes equated with "charismatic".

David

Thu, 2006-08-31 12:19

Non-cessationist definitely is a bit of a mouthful, as you mention.

How is charismatic more general than neo-pentecostal?

What about gifts and Sunday gatherings? Must gifts be practiced in this setting, or would many charismatics see these gifts as something that should be used but not necessarily in that setting?

Tousle-Haired Poet (not verified)

Thu, 2006-08-31 13:39

How is charismatic more general than neo-pentecostal?

Definition pawned off web:

Charismatic - also known as "Neo-Pentecostalism" that arose in the mid-twentieth century among members of mainline Protestant denominations and Roman Catholicism. This movement practiced such Pentecostal doctrines as speaking in tongues, faith healing, and stressed subjective experiences with the Holy Spirit. Although initially interdenominational, the Charismatic movement spawned non-denominational Christian groups that do not necessarily fit into the category of Protestantism or Roman Catholicism.

From:

http://members.tripod.com/monsterwax/terms.html

Many groups who practise the spiritual gifts (non-cessationist) mentioned by Paul do not necessarily participate in "faith healing" (which is not specifially mentioned by Paul) or stress subjective experiences with the Holy Spirit as a verification of receiving the Holy Spirit.

What about gifts and Sunday gatherings? Must gifts be practiced in this setting, or would many charismatics see these gifts as something that should be used but not necessarily in that setting?

For many groups, it is difficult to meet regularly more than once per week. And since the purpose of the gifts is the same as meeting on Sundays (i.e. to encourage, exhort, teach, praise, heal, etc), then it is only natural that the gifts be exercized in weekly meetings of the Body.